PAX AUS is this week! 18 New Zealand teams will be attending this gaming convention thanks to support from CODE, showcasing their games to a wide audience.
GamesNight continues coverage of these talented New Zealand studios. We spoke to Roger, co-founder and sole designer of Whistling Wizard, about their game, Rose and Locket. We dive into the studio’s journey, the many inspirations and what goes into making this stylish adventure.
Hey there Roger, thanks for taking the time to talk to us at GamesNight, how are you feeling? It must be quite a busy time before PAX?
Yeah, it’s always a busy time before PAX. I think it’s probably more so if it’s your first one just
because there’s so many kind of unforeseen things out there. We’re tired but good—definitely the standard indie dev team response haha. We’re in the final stages of the build, so there’s a lot happening outside of just showcases. We’re scrambling to get it all done.
Can you give us a bit of background on Whistling Wizard and your journey so far? You’re a 2 person team, is that right?
Yeah, absolutely! Ryan and I co-own the company; I’m the artist and Ryan’s the coder. We met when we were studying and it’s still currently the two of us. I finished my first year of deployment and then went out and started learning how to build games. I’ve been an artist my whole life, so I wanted to start putting my design into something practical, so I went out and started learning games and that whole creative process.
Later on, me and Ryan reconnected; we began discussing ideas and started the company together. Over the past decade or so, we’ve been upskilling and that sort of thing, working on prototypes, which eventually led us to Rose and Locket. From there, we just had a flood of publisher interest. Really special and cool, and that led to us signing with our publishers that we work with now. A couple of years later, we’re pretty much coming into the tail end of development.
So you’ve worked with Ryan on and off throughout the years before Whistling Wizard?
I was doing a bit of early game dev work with some people that I know. It was never kind of publicly released. I was testing the waters with a lot of concepts myself at that time. Then when me and Ryan met up again, we just really started talking about stuff that we’d like to build and not shying away from those crazy ideas and that’s what’s led to the crazy idea we’re currently in.
Whistling Wizard, are you inspired by Dungeons and Dragons at all by chance on that name?
I do DM on occasion. The system called ICRPG, Index Card RPG. I did some art for one of the expansion books, which was pretty cool. But yeah, I really enjoy creating role-playing worlds because I think it’s maybe the ultimate game system. It’s interactive and free form.
Whistling Wizard kind of comes from the fact that I’m an 80s kid, raised on 90s media, but I was influenced by 90s arcade games. You’ve also got Pinball Wizard (The Who), and a lot of early fantasy artists like Frank Frazetta influenced me. So it was a throwback, and a lot of what we do is a modern take on game fusion mixed with classic arcade ideas.
Can you tell us about your debut game, Rose and Locket?
Rose and Locket is about a mother outrunning her past as an outlaw during the Wild West era. She can’t, however, escape her gun-slinging ways as an evil being has set out with the intention of blackmail, sealing her daughter’s spirit away in a silver locket in return for entering the Underworld and taking down the Deadly Sins. Rose must once again take up the skills of her former life in exchange for her daughter’s freedom. She does worry however what might be learned along the way of this revealing and dangerous adventure.
Players enter into the Underwest and confront the Seven Deadly Sins in a spaghetti western meets supernatural action adventure.
There seems to be a heavy influence/inspiration from comic book styles/panels throughout the game. Can you tell us more about that design inspiration and that process?
It was interesting. I pretty much took everything I liked and ditched what I didn’t. I’m very comfortable stepping into what I like and shying away from what I don’t. I was taking a lot of elements of what I loved. When I was younger, I was reading comics and I’m a big fan of Mike Mignola’s Hellboy and similar artists. I’m not big into superheroes; I’m more into indie comics. I was taking a lot of those influences. When I was studying, I actually studied animatic-style animation, which involves taking imagery and tween moving it. It’s what they use to map out scenes for film.
A lot of my design is a blend between comic inspiration and film cinematography. I use a lot of letterboxing and I’m a big fan of Tarantino’s work. So it’s pulling from a lot of stuff I like and diving into what I enjoy in art, because if you enjoy the process, that’s going to translate to the player.
Are you the sole designer? Did you have any collaborations?
No, it’s just Ryan and me. The process involves me coming up with some pretty detailed storyboards, which start in sketch form. Ryan talks it through from a technical standpoint, but he won’t admit it—he has a bit of artistic flair as well. He does a lot of in-game effects.
My partner is quite big into drawing and artistry. She noticed that your colours focus heavily on positive and negative space, is that the correct term?
Yeah, negative space. She nailed it. These are artistic terms, but there’s also cinematography and photography involved. Negative space is huge for me. I’m obsessed with it, to be fair. I don’t want to say iconic designs because you don’t set out to make an iconic design, but you think about what an iconic design would be. You spend a lot of time on shape and form factor, and then you consider the rule of thirds, those types of things. I draw a lot from my photography experience.
Is it hard to design it so it doesn’t get confusing for the player using that positive and negative space?
Yeah, you have to consider how the game looks in motion. But I think if you know your title, then you should understand how your character interacts with the environment, including distance and spacing.
When you’re drawing, you’re defining the circumference of what your character can do, and that translates individually. This is why it’s so important to be close to the game you’re working on, especially in lead design. It’s not just about creating something aesthetically pleasing; you have to consider gameplay and spacing. We also have full voice acting in the game, so when the voice acting happens, you don’t want a lot of shooting, but it still has to be interesting. You have to balance a lot.
A lot of games in this 2D style don’t have much voice acting. What made you decide to go with full voice acting in the game?
I was looking for a little more emotional pull. In 2D and sidescrolling spaces, narrative is often pushed to the side or presented as a stop-start system where you’re reading text. One of my flaws is that I want to do everything, which can lead to unique outcomes but also requires a lot of balancing. I wanted to blend everything seamlessly.
When it came to voice acting, there was one voice actor, Melissa, who plays both Rose and her daughter, Rosebud, aka Locket. I reached out to her, and she was incredibly helpful, explaining the ins and outs of hiring and everything like that. I was all in for it.
Games in this type of genre sometimes put story to the side. It definitely does not seem the case for Rose and Locket, what made you go for this mother and daughter story? From what we’ve seen so far, it looks like it might be quite a heavy one!
Yeah, it’s definitely heavy. One thing I love is that you have something accessible like cartooning or heavily stylised design, and then underneath, there’s a serious undertone. When I said I was an ’80s kid growing up in the ’90s, that’s kind of what a lot of ’90s cartoons were like. They had pretty serious messages behind them, the struggle of man and all that type of thing, but it was wrapped up in a completely ridiculous package.
The mother and daughter thing—I was thinking of characters and really wanted to do a western. I’m a huge fan of spaghetti westerns, and that kind of stylization is pulled from samurai films. I was thinking of characters one day, and I thought of Rose, I started building from there. Originally, it was that classic thing where Rose was going to pick up the locket at the end, but then I realised there was a real missed opportunity to explore this relationship dynamic.
I noticed, especially with the boss battle at the end of the current demo, Rose and Locket has a level of challenge to it. How do you get the balance in gameplay and difficulty?
It is hard, but there’s something to be said about focusing on one difficulty. In previous demos, we had two game modes, and it’s something we’re still considering. It goes through testing, obviously, and there have been quite a few gameplay demos posted on YouTube. I watch those to get an average of time versus difficulty. We have a mixed audience—some casual players are coming in for the design and story, while advanced players are here for the run-and-gun stuff. You just piece it together and start testing. We know whatever we test is going to be difficult for us to gauge properly because we’ve been with the game for so long. It’s not that we’re good at the game; it’s just that we know it too well. You offset it with health pick-ups and meticulously tweak it—like adjusting a soundboard until it’s just right.
Rose is going to be facing the seven deadly sins; where did that inspiration come from?
It comes from a bit of Catholicism in my family background. It plays off the weird west theme, which is something I love. I have a shelf full of board games featuring guns and monsters, so I just enjoy that kind of horror-action setting.
The demo has been out for a while; how has the feedback been for you? Rose and Locket picked up publisher interest quite fast.
The first publisher agreement is a lot for everybody. I did some coaching because we dealt with a lot of publisher agreements. Me and Ryan were working conventional jobs. I was looking everywhere for support and funding, but there was nothing. We forged our company on our own by posting online and entering publisher agreements. We’re working with Critical Reflex for Rose and Locket, and they’ve been taking the game around the world to events. It’s been cool to see the response.
Now, there’s a lot of support in New Zealand, and CODE is doing amazing work, giving teams opportunities to build incredible projects. There’s so much talent in New Zealand; it’s amazing to see so many cool projects out there.
You mentioned you’re in the process of getting the demo built. Is it an extension of the current demo or a different slice?
It’s basically the demo we had last year at PAX with some edits, more combat, and huge refinements. It’s a lot slicker now. We were also slated to release a 45-minute demo for this upcoming Steam Next Fest, but we’ve had to push it to March next year. That demo will give a clearer look at the front end of the game.
Are you aiming for a mid-next year release?
I won’t commit to anything specific, but we’re looking at next year.
Rose and Locket will definitely pull in a big audience, people can bond with the mother/daughter dynamic and the nostalgic art style.
I’m definitely looking to do more of that in the next title. Rose travels across seven biomes, so it’s a fast-paced adventure. We’ve learned from this experience for our next title.
Are you already brainstorming for a second title?
Yes, we’re pretty much committed to the second title now. The working title is Kiro, but that name is about to change since we found out it’s already taken. Kiro is a title featuring a samurai frog wandering a besieged village. We have a unique setting and are excited about it.
I’m taking the unique aspects of Rose and Locket and ramping them up in bespoke moments, with a top-down perspective, and working with more camera shots for the second game.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk! Is there anything else you’d like to add on how to best keep up with you?
Keep an eye on our Twitter and Instagram. We’ll do a big push early next year, and the bigger demo will give a clear look at what Rose and Locket really is.
Rose and Locket is available to wishlist now on Steam, with a demo available now!
Be sure to check out our previous PAX developer interviews including Burger Bois , Doomtide and Corporeal. Stay tuned for more interviews over the coming weeks!
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